Okay, this is going to show how green and ignorant I am really of puroresu, but the only way to learn is to ask. Generally, I know wrestlers in puroresu work stiff and don't pull their punches and kicks. But how much of the stuff we see is real?
I was looking at this clip the other day and wondered if Kanemaru really had to be carried out or whether it was a work. On one hand, I know they don't tend to fake things in puroresu like they do in America... But then again, they do so many nasty moves in puroresu that it would seem like a lot of careers would be ending left and right if it was all totally true.
Anyway, thanks for your answers...
"I think the basic thing nobody asks is why do people takes drugs of any sort?... Why do we have to have these accessories to normal living to live? I mean, is there something wrong with society that's making us so pressurized, that we cannot live without guarding ourselves against it?" - John Lennon
Puro can be brutal. It's the reason I love watching the All Japan and NOAH tapes I get, not out of sheer brutality but just out of the love of watching guys work, and actually take the punishment they give.
It's all about taste, either you love the stiff (Read: Strong) style or not, I do, I enjoy it, that was my style as a backyard wrestler. Puro can be stiff sometimes, but not always.
"I'm not going to call an ambulance, because if I do you will have learned nothing"-Family Guy
To me, a match doesnt have to be stiff to be good. I think if a match is just based upon how black and blue the two guys get than it takes away from other match aspects. Personally, I'm more of a fan of non-repetitiveness. But as far as stiffness goes, Puro is king IMO. because they can work stiff without hurting each other like wrestlers in America who work that style.
Kind of off the topic but that diamond head doesn't look that "wicked" to me. Of course it isnt a walk in the park but isn't no ganso bomb either. As far as the stiff work, i love it. You don't have to hurt people to make me happy as I am not a brute but I do love the occasional head drop move or stiff lariat or kick. A non noted stiff kicker is the old classic tenryu kick in the forehead, that always makes me laugh .
There is a difference between stiff and snug. Big strikes have to be stiff in order to look good. If you hit someone like Jimmy Valiant used to you're going to make yourself look like an idiot, and the guy who has to sell it look even more retarded. The differences in injury rate between Japan and the US can be attributed mostly to 2 things. First, Japanese workers are trained to be stiff on strikes and snug on everything else. So while you're going to wake up with bruises and a sore body, there is no actual damage, most of the time. Second, incorporating strong style values is a relatively new concept in America, and most knowledge about the style comes from watching tapes. Because of this, workers in America tend to be stiff when they should be snug. Homicide is one guy who comes to mind as an example of this. Even his punches are incredibly stiff, and for how much damage you're doing to the other guy, it really doesn't add much to the match. Steve Corino lost hearing in one ear from that treatment, and I don't care how good the match was, there's no way that hitting him that hard made the match so much better that it was worth losing hearing in one ear.
But to sum up the original question. Strikes are stiff, because they make great sounds and look really good, and since it's obvious that they're not fake, they bring some credibility to puroresu. Everything else is snug, keeping ithe product looking credible and the injury rate down.
There is a difference between stiff and snug. Big strikes have to be stiff in order to look good. If you hit someone like Jimmy Valiant used to you're going to make yourself look like an idiot, and the guy who has to sell it look even more retarded. The differences in injury rate between Japan and the US can be attributed mostly to 2 things. First, Japanese workers are trained to be stiff on strikes and snug on everything else. So while you're going to wake up with bruises and a sore body, there is no actual damage, most of the time. Second, incorporating strong style values is a relatively new concept in America, and most knowledge about the style comes from watching tapes. Because of this, workers in America tend to be stiff when they should be snug. Homicide is one guy who comes to mind as an example of this. Even his punches are incredibly stiff, and for how much damage you're doing to the other guy, it really doesn't add much to the match. Steve Corino lost hearing in one ear from that treatment, and I don't care how good the match was, there's no way that hitting him that hard made the match so much better that it was worth losing hearing in one ear.
But to sum up the original question. Strikes are stiff, because they make great sounds and look really good, and since it's obvious that they're not fake, they bring some credibility to puroresu. Everything else is snug, keeping ithe product looking credible and the injury rate down.
It brings back a comment ROH's Danny Maff said about what his trainer (Afa) said about the stiff style:
"If you cannot take a stiff, you shouldn't be in wrestling".
In essence it's about what your preference is (as a wrestler). Me being the former backyarder (not to toot my horn) I could adapt to the Stiff and snug styles, and I have been told my lariat have almost knocked someone out. So I believe it is a style preference, and I also agree that wherever you wrestle (mexico, japan et al) you are trained for that style, be it to make you or your opponent look good or to sell whatever you or your opponent gives.
But I agree with Trade comments the puroresu style is popular because of the strong style blows and how credible it is. Whilst American wrestling is more snug as not to inujure anyone, unless you are Triple H with a sledgehammer ready to knock the coldfire out of someone, LOL. Even though, there are other wrestlers out there other than Homocide who are Strong Style followers.
Hope this made sense.
"I'm not going to call an ambulance, because if I do you will have learned nothing"-Family Guy
I think you're either missing the point or are misinterpreting what I mean by stiff and snug.
First of all, I would put next to zero stock in anything Afa says. His school is well known to be the biggest scam on the face of the planet. Giving him $6,000 for a few weeks of training is almost as smart as backyard wrestling. Even if you are going to give him some credit as a guy who has been in the business for a very long time, have you ever seen him work a decent match? I did not think so.
What he's saying is that if you are so much of a wuss that getting punched once is too much for you, wrestling is not for you. Duh.
Stiff or snug are not styles inandof themselves. They are ways to perform a certain style. Strong style (in the 80's New Japan sense) is a style. King's Road is a style. These can be performed stiffly, or snugly, and usually both.
I am also not saying that you should sell anything someone throws. If you put me in the ring with someone who hits like Coby Corino, I am not selling that, and I'm going to light you up for trying to make me look stupid. No school or camp I have been to ever said it was a good idea to sell garbage like that. If you pull crap like that on me a second time you better hope you're a shooter, 'cause it's stretching time. You'll also find that opinion to be rather common among guys influenced by various Japanese styles and/or trained traditionally. If you hit Bill Watts like a girl he would hospitalize you.
Homicide does not practice strong style. He practices what he calls "American strong style" which basically boils down to more potatoes than Idaho. I have nothing against the guy personally, I've never met him. But I have friends who have worked him and complained about him being unsafe. And since they have no problem with how hard I nail them in the ring, that tells me everything I need to know. Homicide isn't the only one who thinks that way, but he's probably the most documented case of it on the net. Hardcore Holly is pretty much the same way. He potatoes people because he can, although in his case most people seem to think it's because he's a jerk, and not for stylistic purposes.
I'm assuming that by American wrestling you mean WWE. And if that is the case, I'm not sure how that can be called snug. For the most part, they now work really light up north. Really light. Back when Heyman had the book on Smackdown, most of the stuff on that show was snug because he told the guys to do what they wanted. Some of the suplexes drifted into the stiff area. The injuries speak for themselves. Snug is not fake. Snug is tight. Snug usually hurts. But that's all in a day's work.
^This is why I'm glad you came back to this forum, Trade.
What you said about Afa is exactly why I want to convince my friend (who is Afa's Nephew btw.) to go overseas and train some more, I don't think he's ready for the big leagues based on what Afa taught him.
I just have to find away to convince him with out insulting his uncle.
There is no way you can teach someone what they need to know in the amount of time Afa runs a class. I don't care if you have the best trainer there ever was with the best possible student, teaching wrestling is something that takes time. After six months of training you are usually ready to wrestle an opening match on an indy show, going 5-7 minutes with a match most people would rate a DUD or less. Afa may have all the makings of a great trainer, but for what he charges there is no way you can get your money out of it. If he worked with his kids longer, you might see a lot of talent come out of his school. Then again, it's also possible that he only runs short classes because he doesn't know enough to teach anyone longer than that. As far as I know, Kidman is the only guy with any talent to go through that school. Kidman also progressed fast enough that he was done with Afa's school in half the scheduled time, and I'm pretty sure he went to another school after that. After Kidman, I believe Gene Snitsky is the best worker to come out of there, which should be a big red flag. There's no way he's ready for the big time unless of course he's tall and ripped, in which case I'm sure he already has a developmental deal, and he'll be stinking up our TVs in no time. Since your friend is family Afa may be willing to teach him more than he does in the standard class, and if so he should persue it.
Since you mentioned Afa's school I'm assuming your friend lives in PA. If he does, and wants to learn how to really work, he should consider CM Punk's school. It's a reasonable drive from anywhere in PA, and given how he has performed over the last year it's obvious that Punk knows psychology and understands how the business works, especially from the perspective of how to deliver in big main event matches. Samoa Joe is also supposed to help out there from time to time. Considering your friend already went through a wrestling school, he probably wouldn't have to wait until Punk runs another tryout. NJ's dojo is practically impossible for gaijin to get into(even then fluent Japanese would be a must), and the Inoki Dojo in LA hasn't really produced anyone to justify relocating to go there. From what I've seen, Pro Wrestling IRON's school gives a good return for the money. Yes, it's expensive. But you get trained by people with reputations for being able to work, they have proven to produce quality students and have ties to NOAH. Anyone who has seen a PWI show can attest to the quality of the training they do. IRON, like Les Thatcher, seems to be big of diet and excercise, so if your friend has the, er, traditional Samoan physique, he can expect a rude awakening when it comes to out of the ring training, and it would probably be wise to prepare for it beforehand. Speaking of Les, he does good work too, and he's based in Cincinnati.
As far as insulting his uncle goes, I would stress a lot of the same kinds of things I just mentioned. It's nothing personal against Afa or the way he chooses to do business, but since you're his friend you want to make sure he's really ready when he gets his name out there. Most people can't learn to wrestle in six months. I don't know of anyone who ever made it with six months of training. And just because you're still training doesn't mean you won't work matches during that time. When you're ready for opening matches you'll work opening matches. No really good workers have come out the school in a long time either. Since it has WWE endorsement, Afa probably does a good job of teaching people promos, having a personality, dealing with TV time limitations and those kinds of things, which are completely different from learning how to work for 20+ minutes. If you think it would help, have him drop me a line and I'd be happy to answer any questions he might have.
I haven't seen my friend since 2000, but from what he told me about a month ago, he weighs about 250 or so, and last time I saw him, he was fairly muscular. and yes, he lives in Southern PA.
He has already graduated from Afa's school, at the top of his class, he doesn't have his sights set on the WWE yet, he said maybe in a few years, so he's being more realistic than most ( when he first decided to get into wrestling he thought it would be a walk, because his Nephew is The Rock, so he thought he would be in for sure just because he's a relative, but now he knows better).
he seems to be entrusting his career to his family, I think its a big mistake. Last time I saw him he looked alot like Rocky, so it looks like he's hoping to get in as the New Rock, but he's not against playing A High chief like his father did (Peter Maivia). I don't think The Rock II or the High chief gimmick is going to work for him in this day and age, And I can only hope he doesn't try a sumo gimmick like his late cousin Rodney.
I think he should get some more worldly training, maybe learn more at one of the schools you suggested, then maybe get some international bookings if possible. I think he would benefit more by learning as many styles as he can, little bit of lucha here, alittle Puro there, possibly some shoot-style, I think he would be better off being more well-rounded instead of doing what his family does.
The problem now is he has a wife and kid already, so he might not be able to go off and train like that.
Last edited by Daishikaze; 2005-01-09 at 03:51 PM.
How old is your friend exactly? I just assumed he was in his early 20s at the oldest. If he's already 30 he doesn't have much time to make a career in wrestling, and if he wants to have the slightest shot at making it wrestling has to be a higher priority than family. That is one thing I really envy about Triple H. He was lucky enough to marry someone who understands that working a house show is more important than going to family events.
If Rock was still on top drawing money by the truckload, his assumption about getting in because he was related to Rock would have been dead on. You're not going to tell your top guy that you don't have 500 bucks/week for a family member when he's making you millions. Although, if he's 250 of muscle and 6'+ that is exactly what the WWE is looking for. He sounds like a prime prospect to get paid to learn from Jim Cornette, and there ain't a **** thing wrong with that.
Looking like Rock pretty much killed Kid Romeo. If the resemblence is strong he should consider a makeover pronto. Unless he wants to try to take The Smoke's spot in WEW. He's going to have to be really good to take Smoke's spot though, that guy is hilarious. I agree that there's no way you can get a high chief gimmick over now. Sumo isn't something he should have to worry about at 250 or in 2005. Unless of course he wants to try competing in sumo to get a break into MMA to use as a springboard into wrestling.
International bookings aren't that easy to come by. Flying you in is expensive. Plus they have to pay for your hotel, other expenses, and then pay you on top of it. If you're going anywhere other than Canada odds are you're already established, or at least have a track record of putting on great matches and have a cult following in the place you're going to. And there are lots of places you don't want to go. Africa, South America and North Korea immediately come to mind.
Where he should go now totally depends on what kind of worker he wants to be. I completely agree that he shouldn't try to do what his family does, since the fat power guy is pretty much dead and no one else can be The Rock. If he has his heart set on WWE, then Jim Cornette and/or Les Thatcher are the guys to see. They fully understand TV and promos and know how to put a match together. Just listening to Cornette book a show will do wonders for your wrestling IQ. The man is a walking finish generator. If he's looking for Japan, and has some shoot experience, have him fly out to California the next time DSE has a tryout. That gets you a chance to get booked on Bushido and Hustle at the same time. To learn how to wrestle in Japan, IRON all the way. Mike and Donovan do an incredible job. If he wants to learn lucha, Ultimo Dragon is rumored to be reopening the Toryumon school in Mexico City, and he probably has the best track record of training guys of anyone on the planet. I don't know what language he teaches in though. If he's looking for a strong psychology background, then Punk is probably the guy to see. If he wants to really REALLY learn how to WRESTLE in the purest sense, Dan Severn always seemed pretty good at that, although I don't know of anyone who has ever survived his training school. That's up in Coldwater, MI. Dan also teaches MMA, and for 60 bucks/month that's a steal and a half.
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Originally Posted by Tradewynd
