Junior heavyweight titles: the pinacle?

[One to Remember]

Is the jr. title really enough to celebrate over? You have guys like Ultimo Dragon, Tiger Mask IV ,Taka Michinuku, and Jushin Liger STILL at this point in their careers competing for secondary titles. Call me an Americanist but I just don't think junior heavyweight and tag titles are that high on the latter. If these titles were the top in Japan why even create a Triple Crown or IWGP or GHC title? Why arnt these men competing for these titles, the ones that hoover above all?The J-Cup is quite an accomplishment but it would be a shame and pity if Ultimo Dragon were to slip into the Cruiserweight division instead of attemping a serious run with the WWE Championship. I know I'm gonna get a lot of slack for this but light-heavyweight and junior heavyweight titles are lower titles that would make good starters but are barely relavent later in a career. Over 12 years ago Liger was WCW light-heavyweight champ but now what is he? Another little guy stuck in "cruise control" to quote PWI. These legends you speak of might be little guys but its time to evaluate their careers to the NEXT level before its t late. Before they become another Wahoo McDanial a five time U.S. champ and a no time World champ. The day Liger wears the GHC is the day he TRULY main events. THE DAY HE IS KING not the prince who likes to show off. Do you think Sting would of been able to make WCW a huge company being a seven time cruiserweight champ? The day these juniors like Taka become IWGP champions is the day the I in IWGP can truly be truth. These legends you call 'em? Glorified mid-carders. Nothin more nothin less!

IN THE LAND OF THE RISING SUN WHEN IS ENOUGH ENOUGH?

[stunning_grover]

Okay, I'm gonna reply to this post. Some may think I'm wasting my time for taking this post seriously. But I'm gonna do it anyway.

Is the jr. title really enough to celebrate over? You have guys like Ultimo Dragon, Tiger Mask IV ,Taka Michinuku, and Jushin Liger STILL at this point in their careers competing for secondary titles. Call me an Americanist but I just don't think junior heavyweight and tag titles are that high on the latter.

For a junior heavyweight wrestler, a junior heavyweight title is an important title.

If these titles were the top in Japan why even create a Triple Crown or IWGP or GHC title? Why arnt these men competing for these titles, the ones that hoover above all?

Because there is a difference between heavyweights and junior heavyweights.

The J-Cup is quite an accomplishment but it would be a shame and pity if Ultimo Dragon were to slip into the Cruiserweight division instead of attemping a serious run with the WWE Championship.

Why? Ultimo Dragon as WWE Champion? Hilarious!

I know I'm gonna get a lot of slack for this but light-heavyweight and junior heavyweight titles are lower titles that would make good starters but are barely relavent later in a career.

That is ridiculous. Like I said before, a junior heavyweight title is a major title for a junior heavyweight wrestler.

Over 12 years ago Liger was WCW light-heavyweight champ but now what is he? Another little guy stuck in "cruise control" to quote PWI. These legends you speak of might be little guys but its time to evaluate their careers to the NEXT level before its t late.

There is no next level for Liger.

Before they become another Wahoo McDanial a five time U.S. champ and a no time World champ.

McDaniel held a secondary heavyweight title. Liger held a primary junior heavyeight title. I don't see the comparison.

The day Liger wears the GHC is the day he TRULY main events. THE DAY HE IS KING not the prince who likes to show off.

As great as he is, a man of Liger's size cannot be the number one heavyweight champion in any major promotion. This is just how the business works, this has nothing to do with Liger's ability.

Do you think Sting would of been able to make WCW a huge company being a seven time cruiserweight champ?

Sting is a heavyweight, so this really makes no sense.

The day these juniors like Taka become IWGP champions is the day the I in IWGP can truly be truth. These legends you call 'em? Glorified mid-carders. Nothin more nothin less!

I'm not calling Ultimo Dragon and Taka legends. But Liger truly is a legend because he is one of the very best junior heavyweight wrestlers of all time.

[Luds]

The junior heavyweight title is the tops for a junior heavyweight. Japanese stars are respected for what they are.

It would be silly to have Liger defeat Tenzan for the IWGP, and not believable at all as Liger is just too small!

Japanese fans and puro fans understand this.

[HORRORSHOW]

I was gonna respond, but Grover covered all the bases.

[Hisaharu Tanabe]

The weight divisions are more important in Japan, Mexico, and Europe than they are in the US and Canada. Unless you get this, you'd never understand the importance of the junior heavyweight division.

[One to Remember]

In boxing u can be gloried by just being junior heavyweight or welterweight champion of the World. Wrestling isnt the same. In wrestling you've got to be (World) heavyweight champion or you're a failure or forgettable. Your magazine and allot of fans have lost faith in Rey Mysterio but there are still ways he can be heavyweight champion without the match lookin rediculous. What Ive thought of is the concept of the middle man or universal opponent. This is a way of weakoning Mysterio's compition without cutting it down. Case and point say Mysterio is having trouble beating current champion JBL. Well, Mysterio can then face Eddy Guerrero after (if) he regains the title. Because Eddy is big enough for JBL and small enough for Rey he serves as the middleman. He could also wait for Angle because he is groundbased and more monuverable. Same senario in TNA 'cause A.J. Styles is universal and esier to handle then Jeff Jarret or Ron Killings, Rey could easily be NWA heavyweight NOT junier or X champion. The buighty of this all is Mysterio doesnt have to loose his credibility in the process. like your magazine and fans I was givin up hope but now I believe Rey has a chance (only assuming Vince Mcmahon stops the corruption on Smackdown!).


I plan on sending this to Inside Wrestling but I think your Liger could benefit from this. Tell me if there are flaws.

[stunning_grover]

Why would you want to see Rey Misterio Jr. as world heavyweight champion?

[Luds]

One To Remember, I think that you missed the boat here.

Everywhere other than the US, you CAN be gloried as Junior Heavyweight champion just like boxing.

[HORRORSHOW]

Yea, unfortunately, most of the places that garner mainstream attention here in the US are sticking to the Vinny Mac theme of the biggest wrestlers being the most important. Everywhere else, Light Heavyweights are just as respected as the heavyweights usually, but the Vince mentality has not only monopolised the buisness side of things in US wrestling, but it is also the standard by which many feds still do their booking. Even in the feds where the smaller guys are cut a break, it's still usually the biggest of the small tht does best. It's just international difference.

[One to Remember]

Why would you want to see Rey Misterio Jr. as world heavyweight champion?

Who would'nt He's not leaving the U.S. and he deserves more then the mid-card. Unlike JBL most people like him and he hasnt stuck up any Nazi salutes yet

What do you think of the middle man concept?

[stunning_grover]

What do you think of the middle man concept?

The middle man concept is not bad. But I really just don't want to see Rey Misterio Jr. as WWE heavyweight champion. JBL and Guerrero are fine as champions. I'd prefer a long JBL title reign and then have Guerrero regain the belt at some point. Or they could get some RAW worker(s) like Benoit or Jericho to Smackdown for future title reigns.

Rey Misterio Jr. just doesn't have what it takes, in my opinion. But he doesn't need that belt anyway, he is really over already. And having a WWE heavyweight champion of his size will make everyone look ridiculous. Letting him win the tag title with someone (RVD?) or maybe have a short U.S. title run would be a better idea.

But anyway, we're really talking about WWE way too much now, let's not turn this into a WWE thread...

[kurama_tengu]

This topic humors me, I smell an Apter mark. Stunning Grover has covered much of my responses, but my first thoughts are that Mr. Sting-mark needs to watch something other than the fine WWE programming available today. Please read into puroresu in general and then look into the rich history of the junior heavyweights, both in Japan and Mexico. Watch some tapes....you can ask the forum members and they will recommend both vendors and matches. If you keep an open mind, you'll see what attracts puroresu fans to the styles, matches, and wrestlers from Japan. I myself started my wrestling viewing as a WWF fan back when Hogan first won the WWF title. I am at the point in my life now where I hardly watch any worked matches(especially not the WWE) and now just read the news on the internet. It appears I'm not missing much at all, even Japan is deteriorating. Seems my best bet is to get year-end compilation tapes.

[One to Remember]

Yesterday on PBS I was watching Unforgivable Blackness: Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson and something I saw on their reminded me of what's wrong with Jr. heavyweight titles. Exclusivty. Jim Jeffries said about Johnson he'd never defend the title from a Negro and that sense he beat all the White competitors he decided it was time to retire undisputed champion and all. You see I'm no automatic advocate for the big guy but the heavyweight title brings to the tablesomething jr. heavyweight titles dont. No matter what culture race or society respects this title you still find that same problem. ITS NOT EVERY MANS TITLE! It cuts off a whole line of competition. Hell it cant even be phrased reversed. A heavyweight title can be defended between jr. heavyweights but a jr. heavyweight title cant be defended between heavyweights. The latter's restrictions cheapen the title regardless of culture. A jr. heavyweight saying he had a **** good career with him dominating just is not possible. Its no different then Jeffries stepping into the ring and saying he was the greatest of all time whyle at the same time saying no ****** will hold the title. Because he omits Johnson one of the greatest of all time and because he is promoted as the Great White Hope and later looses to him anyways after is re-amergence from retirence shows that all competitors regardless must be eligiable for your championship. You might argue if only Show or Vader could loose weight it would then lift restrictions but its never right to take a man out of his element.

[HORRORSHOW]

ITS NOT EVERY MANS TITLE!

You're right. heavyWEIGHT...lightWEIGHT....It's just a matter of weight classes, just like in many other sports. However, american audiences have been conditioned to think that the Heavyweight title is the be-all-end-all of wrestling accomplishment. That's just more of the "bigger means better" attitude mainstream society cranks out.

[kurama_tengu]

After reading some of your posts One To Remember, I think I better remind you: It's a work!! Whether it's Japan, US, Mexico, the Caribbean.....they're all works! You can't compare boxing with wrestling, since most boxing matches are shoots and all of the wrestling matches are works. In this forum, I think you will be one of the few, if not the only member who would even think that someone like Liger, Ultimo Dragon, Sayama, etc. would have their legacy lessened because they didn't win a heavyweight championship. I'm beginning to think that you might think that Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Diesel/Kevin Nash, and were great wrestlers because they won the WWF Heavyweight Championship.......