Inoki vs. Ali

[Tradewynd]

I watched the famed Inoki vs. Ali fight last night, and now that it has sunk in I'll share a few thoughts on it. The version I have has English commentary.

First of all, I really didn't like the way the announcers constantly buried Inoki for no reason. They took shots at wrestling, claimed that "everyone knows a boxer could wipe the floor with a wrestler any day" and belittled every move he made. It's one thing when a heel color commentator says things that obviously aren't true to get heat on the talent. It's quite another when commentators who claim be unbiased sound like mid 90s Jerry Lawler without the personality or charisma.

You would almost think this was an infomercial for Ali vs. Norton, considering it was plugged a mere 50,000 times.

Inoki's corner consists of a who's who in puroresu. Sakaguchi, Gotch and more all back Inoki. Inoki is referred to as the "World Champion of Wrestling and Martial Arts" although there is no mention of who sanctioned such a title.


Bwtween rounds Ali's corner is working overtime trying to sooth his legs and come up with some sort of trickery to win the fight. Inoki is just taking it easy, probably scanning the crowd picking out a rat or two for later.
Ali obviously had a high opinion of himself going in, because he talked a lot of trash to Inoki in the early rounds, and had the gall to call him a coward for staying on the ground and attacking his legs. Our unbiased announce team concurs with Ali. Of course, no one mentions that during their little sparring session Ali got his tooty fruity booty kicked, and demanded the rules changed so Inoki couldn't use any of the offense he showed. Otherwise he would have shown how big and bad he was by taking his ball and going home. So in this case it's obviously Inoki who is the coward. It's not like Inoki demanded no punching from Ali in return.

As the fight goes on and Ali starts getting the crap kicked out of his legs, he gets a lot less cocky. I wonder why. His legs looked really bad. But have no fear, the announcers know that he'll be fine in 2 weeks, in plenty of time to fight Norton.

By my count, Ali landed all of 6 punches throughout the entire fight. However, when he hit punch number 3, and was obviously uncomfortable standing from Inoki kicking him again and again the announcers tell us to have no fear, because Ali is still ahead on points.

Another interesting point is that the announcers implied that Inoki was cheating by kicking Ali's legs. I'm not sure how they came up with that, but assuming that it really was cheating, I would think that the ref could have done something about it during the 45 minutes the fight went on. I realize that this is the 70s and anyone who isn't American is automatically a heel, but anyone who buys into that has about 2 functioning brain cells.

At one point it looked like Inoki was going to invent ground and pound, but Ali took the coward's way out and went to the bottom rope. If Ali had better balance and didn't fall across half of the ring right into the ropes, he would have been in deep trouble. The look of fear on his face is priceless.

This version of it completely kills Inoki's heat, and pipes heat for Ali whenever he lands something that resembles offense. For example, when Ali hits one of his 6 devastating punches that were no doubt worth 200 points each, they can in some cheers and an "Ali" chant. However, there is a very strong ghetto accent in the chant. While I'm not an expert on what accents were considered groovy in Japan in the 70s, I know that no one appearing in 70s sentai used the ghetto accent. I also refuse to consider the possibility that a bunch of broke hood rats had the money to fly to Tokyo and buy tickets to see the fight. And even if they did, they would have been loud and obnoxious the whole time, like Ali's trainers. It's also nice to clearly see the crowd popping for Inoki and hearing almost nothing.

As you probably know, it ended in a draw since Inoki agreed not to use any cool submission moves or dangerous pro wrestling strikes. It's a shame that the Shining Wizard hadn't been invented yet, because I saw a bunch of openings to use it. If I can KO a boxer with a Shining Wizard, I'm sure Inoki can. There was no mention of who was ahead on these theoretical points. Ali did have this to say after the fight "If he was ahead by one point, I win. If he was ahead by two points, it a draw. If he was would have to be ahead by four points, he won, no three points." Ali truly was a poet and a scholar. Since Inoki kicked him (literally) at least 15 times for every punch Ali landed, it shouldn't be close enough for one or two points to matter anyway, unless of course the announcers were scoring it.

The lesson to be learned here is that pro wrestlers be strongest.

[Toan]

Very interesting read...

Of course back in them days pro-wrestlers were legitimate bad-asses compared to today's pro-wrestlers.

Take Karl Gotch for example... the man's wrestling was an early form of MMA in a pro-wrestling enviroment.

Reminds me of this conversation that I had with a friend who teaches a self-defence class and watches MMA...

Basically nobody can punch like a Western Boxer but a boxer isn't trained to know how to handle it when they face someone like Royce Gracie who is trained to grapple on the floor and go into a submission-based enviroment.

So, logically... a decent MMA fighter should know how to punch like a boxer (with some low kicks if needed) and how to grapple on the mat like someone who uses Gracie Jujitsu.

Though I have to admit... a shoot fight being won with a Shining Wizard would be one awesome sight to see!

[Supah Indy]

I downloaded Inoki vs. Ali awhile back. It was a huge let down for sure.

I dont see how Pro Wrestlers are the stongest comes into play though. Ali was obviously out of his element. If this were a standard boxing match, would Inoki have been the strongest? I think not. This is one reason I dont buy into the "most dangerous" or "best fighter" logic. There is always going to be someone who can beat you. ALWAYS. (unless your name is Rickson Gracie....but how good do you think he would do in a match with only striking? ala Boxing, Kickboxing). Even though shootfighting/MMA is legally the closest thing to real fighting, to have rules goes against the entire point of combat. It's all about the element of the match.

[Toan]

I see your point but the fight was done in an era when all combat sports focused on one particular area (like punching for boxers, grappling for jujitsu fighters, etc) which gave them a false sense of security until the era of Ultimate Fight which was when martial arts developed more than they had for the past 200 years.

It was only until people started doing more and more mixed martial arts fights did people start to think "well, if I work in all areas I'll be able to handle anything that comes" rather than "I'll work in just this area and forget the rest"

[Tradewynd]

Indy, this is not to be watched as a fight, but to be understood with the proper historical context. Let's recap the hype and the fallout.

2/75: Ali breaks out the proper English and says "I'll accept challenge by any Oriental fighter."

3/75: Inoki publicly accepts.

4/75: Inoki hands Ali a challenge letter when Ali stopped in Tokyo on his way to a fight somewhere in Asia (I think Malaysia).

1/76: Judo Gold Medalist Willem Ruska challenges Inoki.

2/76: In the "World's Top Martial Artist Deciding Match" Inoki defeats Ruska. Ali gets around to accepting Inoki's challenge.

3/76: Ali and Inoki sign a contract for the fight, which will take place under open rules.

5/76: Ali asks The Sheik to train him in the art of pro wrestling. Brilliant choice I might add, since spikes and fireballs are not legal.

6/76: Ali arrives in Tokyo. Inoki sends him a crutch as a present. Inoki and Ali spar. After bringing their collective brains together, Ali's camp finally realizes that Ali is going to be humiliated. They immediately demand everything Inoki did during the sparring session be illegal in the fight, or they would defend the honor of America by taking thier ball and going home. Inoki says don't lose that crutch, you're still going to need it. Inoki vs. Ali ends in a draw.

8/76: Ruska whoops Ivan Gomez, who was unbeaten in vale tudo for 9 years.

9/76: Ali goes 15 rounds with Norton and wins by decision.

12/76: Inoki wrestled Pakistani hero Akrum Pelwan. Inoki breaks his arm for the win.

2/77: Inoki tells the New York Times he wants to kick Ali's tooty fruity booty again.

6/77: Not wanting to come off as a wuss who can't beat a wrestler, Ali demands that Inoki prove himself worthy of a rematch by 1) Inoki fights The Monster Man and 2) Inoki submits a tape of him in a boxing match.

8/77: Inoki KOs The Monster Man. George Forman is unofficially announced as his next opponent.

10/77: Forman could not compete due to some sort of "contract issue." Inoki beats Chuck Wepner instead.

2/78: Ali loses to Spinks, and is no longer worthy of fighting Inoki.

6/78: Monster Man gets the rematch he wanted, and Inoki beats him again.

Pro wrestlers be strongest comes into play not only because it was the greatest name for a show NJ ever promoted, but because even with all of the cowardice Ali showed when push came to shove he could only land .4 punches on Inoki per round. Inoki owned him. Under the open rules Ali agreed to Inoki would have broken every bone in his body to prove the superiority of professional wrestling. Ali was far more in his element than Inoki was in his. None of Ali's offense was illegal, while almost all of Inoki's was.

If it was just under boxing rules, I don't know which way it would go. Considering no one ever beat Inoki in boxing, and the fact that Forman didn't want to fight him, says a lot.

Much like the early UFC, the point was determine who had the stronger style of combat. I believe the facts speak for themselves on this one.

[Supah Indy]

Well, those are some good points Trade.

Even though I'm not the biggest Inoki fan, I dont hate the guy. I do doubt the legitimacy of alot of his fights. I mean:

2/6/76. Inoki vs. Ruska - Won using 3 consecutive back suplexes....c'mon?! Back suplexses can kill people who arent trained to take falls really easily.

10/7/76. Inoki vs. Andre the Giant - KO'd Andre the Giant by slamming his head against the corner post on the outside.

8/8/76 - Inoki vs. Evrett Eddie - Used a powerbomb and a leg drop for the win...I dont think I need to comment on that.

4/24/89 - Inoki vs. Chota Chochoshvili - Inoki lost after taking several reverse suplexes.

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~YF7M-ON/ematch3.html

These are supposed to be Mixed Martial Arts competitions too. From the sounds of those matches as well as other readings I've done, a good bit of it sounds like it's worked to me. Not to mention Andre's rep would've been totally shattered from losing a real fight.

[Kung-Pow]

Where can I find Inoki vs Ali??

[Tradewynd]

I don't know why you find suplexes to be suspect, Severn used a lot of them in MMA fights. Slamming Andre's head into the steps seems like good strategy to me, since he probably drank 20 bottles of wine before the fight anyway. And the Eddie fight had such an impact on a young Hulk Hogan with hair that he decided to ditch his crappy band and use the leg drop as his finisher. I wouldn't worry about Andre's reputation either. Andre was still Andre after he tapped out clean to Inoki.

As to where you can find Inoki vs. Ali, I can certainly hook you up with a DVD at a very reasonable price, or will gladly trade for something cool.

[Supah Indy]

The only suplex I've seen Dan use in a fight is a belly to belly, not a back suplex. I havent even found one record of him using a back suplex in a fight. The back suplex as many people know, takes training to take a fall from. One wrong move and your life is done. I doubt in any real fight, Willem Ruska would've walked away from that fight without serious injury (could've died) from taking 3 Back Suplex's without proper training.

As far as Andre is concerned, he probably even put his hand up before his head hit the post. Besides, how many legitamtely sanctioned 'Martial Arts' competitions end in such seemingly unorthodox manners?

UWFi and many other fake shoot leagues have brought in legends and legit martial artists to please the crowd. I think Inoki's fights were the same.

Brandon from Ichiban Puroresu wrote a good article on Inoki/MMA/Wrestling awhile back that touched a few good points:
http://ichibanpuroresu.com/review/review085.html

[Falcor]

I've got a clip of Dan Severn doing 3 german (back) suplexes on some dude in one of the earlier UFC events.

The guy was wasted.

[Supah Indy]

Alright, on that I stand corrected then. The Macias fight from UFC 4 right? He also won that fight via Submission (real naked choke).

[Supah Indy]

Excuse me. I've realized how insensitive it was of me to try and ruin everyones fun.

I do stand by my initial thoughts of work. But I will not spoil anyone else's fun or discussion. I'm agreeing to disagree basically. Sorry everyone.

[Tradewynd]

Seeing as you are not apologizing for being wrong, based upon principle I simply cannot accept your apology.

Aside from that UFC fight, Severn uses suplexes on a lot of indy MMA shows, and I've seen others use suplexes as well. It's not something you see all the time though. Generally you see wrestlers using them on people who are not pure wrestlers.

And for brawling outside the ring and using foreign objects, it is my understanding that anything not nailed down in the ringside area is fair game in South Korea. At least that is the impression I get from reading about it.

[darktowerchilde]

Hmm, and here I thought Ali was a good person. Man, I can be naive sometimes.